Legislature(2011 - 2012)CAPITOL 120

05/11/2011 08:00 AM House JUDICIARY


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08:06:07 AM Start
08:06:43 AM Presentation(s): the Legality & Constitutionality of the Senate's Capital Budget Language
10:57:16 AM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ Presentation: "The Legality & Constitutionality TELECONFERENCED
of the Senate's Capital Budget Language," by
Dept. of Law & Legislative Affairs Agency, Legal
Services Division
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
               HOUSE JUDICIARY STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                             
                       Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                        
                          May 11, 2011                                                                                          
                           8:06 a.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Carl Gatto, Chair                                                                                                
Representative Steve Thompson, Vice Chair                                                                                       
Representative Wes Keller                                                                                                       
Representative Bob Lynn                                                                                                         
Representative Lance Pruitt                                                                                                     
Representative Max Gruenberg                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative Lindsey Holmes                                                                                                   
Representative Mike Chenault (alternate)                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
OTHER LEGISLATORS PRESENT                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Representative Paul Seaton                                                                                                      
Representative Dan Saddler                                                                                                      
Representative Alan Dick                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
PRESENTATION(S):  THE LEGALITY & CONSTITUTIONALITY OF THE                                                                       
SENATE'S CAPITAL BUDGET LANGUAGE                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     - HEARD                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
No previous action to record                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
JOHN J. BURNS, Attorney General                                                                                                 
Department of Law (DOL)                                                                                                         
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified during the presentation on the                                                                 
legality & constitutionality of the Senate's capital budget                                                                     
language.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHRISTOPHER POAG, Assistant Attorney General                                                                                    
Labor and State Affairs Section                                                                                                 
Civil Division (Juneau)                                                                                                         
Department of Law (DOL)                                                                                                         
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:   Answered questions during  the presentation                                                             
on  the  legality &  constitutionality  of  the Senate's  capital                                                               
budget language.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
BRIAN BJORKQUIST, Senior Assistant Attorney General                                                                             
Labor and State Affairs Section                                                                                                 
Civil Division (Anchorage)                                                                                                      
Department of Law (DOL)                                                                                                         
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION  STATEMENT:   Testified during  the presentation  on the                                                             
legality  &  constitutionality  of the  Senate's  capital  budget                                                               
language.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
DOUG GARDNER, Director                                                                                                          
Legislative Legal and Research Services                                                                                         
Legislative Affairs Agency                                                                                                      
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION  STATEMENT:   Testified during  the presentation  on the                                                             
legality  &  constitutionality  of the  Senate's  capital  budget                                                               
language.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
PAM FINLEY, Revisor of Statutes                                                                                                 
Legislative Legal Counsel                                                                                                       
Legislative Legal and Research Services                                                                                         
Legislative Affairs Agency (LAA)                                                                                                
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION  STATEMENT:   Testified during  the presentation  on the                                                             
legality  &  constitutionality  of the  Senate's  Capital  Budget                                                               
language.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
8:06:07 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR CARL  GATTO called the  House Judiciary  Standing Committee                                                             
meeting  to order  at  8:06 a.m.    Representatives Gatto,  Lynn,                                                               
Keller, Pruitt, and  Thompson were present at the  call to order.                                                               
Representative Gruenberg arrived as  the meeting was in progress.                                                               
Representatives   Seaton,  Saddler,   and  Dick   were  also   in                                                               
attendance.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
^Presentation(s):    The  Legality  &  Constitutionality  of  the                                                               
Senate's Capital Budget Language                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
   Presentation(s):  The Legality & Constitutionality of the                                                                
                Senate's Capital Budget Language                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
[Contains discussion of SB 46.]                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
8:06:43 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO  announced that the  only order of business  would be                                                               
the presentation regarding the  legality and constitutionality of                                                               
the Senate's capital budget language.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
8:09:33 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
JOHN  J.  BURNS,  Attorney  General,  Department  of  Law  (DOL),                                                               
related his understanding the legislature  would like to know why                                                               
the   DOL  believes   the  contingency   clause  non-severability                                                               
language  in   the  version  of   the  capital   budget  recently                                                               
transmitted  from the  Senate to  the House  is unconstitutional.                                                               
He voiced the caveat that  until such time the legislature passes                                                               
the   capital  budget   any  discussion   with  respect   to  the                                                               
unconstitutionality of  the bill is purely  speculative since the                                                               
language could change.  He  stated his responsibility as attorney                                                               
general  is to  uphold  the constitution.    Thus, politics  must                                                               
always  yield to  the  constitutional  provisions and  principles                                                               
that govern  the administration of the  state.  He said  that the                                                               
capital  budget  issue is  not  about  "building a  better  mouse                                                               
trap."    Instead,  the  issue  surrounds  the  process  and  the                                                               
integrity  of   adhering  to  constitutional  principles.     The                                                               
principles of our  democratic form of government  are grounded in                                                               
the constitution.  Thus, the state  must look to the Alaska State                                                               
Constitution to determine the issues  on which the capital budget                                                               
has floundered.   He offered  his belief that the  Senate clearly                                                               
intended to use the contingency  and non-severability language to                                                               
constrain the power of the executive branch.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.   BURNS  explained   Alaska's  Constitution   establishes  an                                                               
appropriation  process  that  consists of  four  discrete  steps.                                                               
First,  the  governor is  required  to  submit  a budget  to  the                                                               
legislature  for consideration.    Second, the  legislature as  a                                                               
bicameral  body  has  the  power  to  pass  appropriation  bills.                                                               
Third, the  governor, per  the constitution,  has line  item veto                                                               
authority.  Finally, the legislature  has the power and authority                                                               
to override the governor's veto.   This process has been in place                                                               
since statehood  and provides  the foundation  of the  checks and                                                               
balances that  constrain the  exercise of  power between  two co-                                                               
equal branches of government.   He identified Sections 48 and 49,                                                               
which were previously Sections 36 and  37 of SB 46 of the capital                                                               
budget,  as provisions  that disrupt  the process  and upset  the                                                               
delicate  balance of  power set  forth in  Alaska's constitution.                                                               
He asserted that the  contingency and non-severability provisions                                                               
in  Sections 48  and  49 are  unconstitutional, individually  and                                                               
collectively.    The power  to  appropriate  money for  a  public                                                               
purpose is vested in the  legislature.  Nonetheless, the governor                                                               
does  play  a vital  role  in  the  appropriation process.    The                                                               
governor's authority to propose a  budget and his power to strike                                                               
or  reduce   appropriation  items   provide  a   significant  and                                                               
important part  of this  process.  He  further asserted  that any                                                               
attempt to  disrupt this  process violates  the balance  of power                                                               
carefully woven into this process.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. BURNS  reported the line  item veto power has  been described                                                               
by Professor  Richard Briffault, a constitutional  scholar quoted                                                               
in two prior Alaska Supreme  Court cases, as "the coming together                                                               
of three  widespread state constitutional  policies:   First, the                                                               
rejection of legislature 'logrolling,'  second, the imposition of                                                               
fiscal   constraints  on   the   legislature,   and  third,   the                                                               
strengthening  of the  governor's  roles  in budgetary  matters."                                                               
Alaska's constitutional  convention delegates intended  to create                                                               
a strong  executive branch with  a strong control over  the purse                                                               
strings of  the state,  he said.   The constitution  provides the                                                               
governor this  control, in  part, by  granting the  governor line                                                               
item veto  authority to strike  or reduce individual items  in an                                                               
appropriation bill.  He said it  was both logical and prudent for                                                               
the  constitutional  delegates  to   confer  this  power  on  the                                                               
governor.   The  governor's position  is uniquely  different than                                                               
that  of  the legislature  since  the  governor has  a  statewide                                                               
constituency as  opposed to the  legislature, which  has discrete                                                               
geographic   constituencies.     Additionally,   the   governor's                                                               
position  is  obligated with  the  responsibility  to review  and                                                               
evaluate appropriations on  a statewide basis.   Therefore, it is                                                               
prudent to  give the governor  the authority to strike  or reduce                                                               
individual  appropriation items  and to  act as  a constraint  on                                                               
excessive  spending.    Nonetheless, the  constitution  makes  it                                                               
clear that  the final power  and final step in  the appropriation                                                               
process rests with  this body.  The legislature has  the power to                                                               
override the governor's veto.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
8:16:11 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. BURNS turned  to the contingencies in SB 46.   He stated that                                                               
Section 48,  the linkage clause,  seeks to link together  what is                                                               
now  approximately  20  appropriation  items  consisting  of  105                                                               
separate  and  distinct  projects comprising  an  estimated  $454                                                               
million in  spending.  This  section would require  the enactment                                                               
of all or none of these  projects without reductions.  He advised                                                               
that  these  linked  appropriations constitute  approximately  25                                                               
percent  of  the  unrestricted   general  funds  proposed  to  be                                                               
expended  in the  Senate's version  of  the capital  budget.   He                                                               
said, "Section 48 is unconstitutional."   It violates Article II,                                                               
Section 15 of  the constitution in that it  deprives the governor                                                               
of   his  clear   authority  to   reduce  or   strike  individual                                                               
appropriation  items.     He  asked  members   to  consider  this                                                               
logically, and how it would be  if the legislature could link one                                                               
appropriation item to another, as  in this case approximately 20,                                                               
or in  future cases perhaps  linking all  transportation projects                                                               
or all construction  projects, regardless of location.   In doing                                                               
so  the legislature  would effectively  eliminate the  governor's                                                               
constitutional power  to strike or reduce  individual line items.                                                               
The  governor would  only  have  two choices,  to  reject all  or                                                               
accept  all as  a group.   He  offered that  allowing or  linking                                                               
appropriations  with such  contingency language  would eviscerate                                                               
the  line item  veto  authority  vested in  the  governor by  the                                                               
constitution.    It  would  enable the  legislature  by  fiat  to                                                               
circumvent the  governor's constitutional  authority.   Thus, the                                                               
language  in Section  48  usurps the  governor's  line item  veto                                                               
power  and  upsets  the  checks   and  balances  built  into  the                                                               
appropriation   process  by   the   constitutional  framers,   he                                                               
concluded.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. BURNS  pointed out the proponents  of Section 48 of  the bill                                                               
argue  that linking  appropriation  items  may be  constitutional                                                               
because the  governor still  would retain his  right to  veto the                                                               
entire  package  of bundled  appropriations.    He asserted  this                                                               
argument is wrong  for three reasons:  First,  the plain language                                                               
of the constitution affords the  governor the authority to strike                                                               
or reduce  appropriation items and  not bundles  of appropriation                                                               
items.   Thus, the  language in Section  48 violates  Article II,                                                               
Section  15 of  the constitution  because it  not only  prohibits                                                               
striking an item but also  eliminates the ability of the governor                                                               
to exercise his constitutional right to reduce an item.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. BURNS continued.   Secondly, if the  legislature could bundle                                                               
appropriation items and  require passage of all or  none it would                                                               
have  the authority  to  "logroll"  which is  to  put together  a                                                               
Christmas tree of  items and impose an all or  nothing rule.  The                                                               
line item veto as vested  represents one of the basic principles.                                                               
He  noted  that  constitutional  delegates had  the  benefits  of                                                               
numerous other  states when framing  Alaska's constitution  so it                                                               
was able  to avoid the  mistakes other  states made.   He related                                                               
that Alaska's  constitutional framers  took the  best provisions,                                                               
which included providing  for a strong executive  branch from the                                                               
standpoint of the line item veto.   Many other states with a line                                                               
item veto  inserted it later, after  their original constitutions                                                               
were  formed due  to runaway  budgets  and excessive  legislative                                                               
spending.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
8:20:54 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  GATTO asked  how many  other states  have a  three-quarter                                                               
vote requirement for overriding vetoes.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. BURNS deferred to Mr. Poag and Mr. Bjorkquist.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  GATTO offered  his  belief  it was  just  a  handful.   He                                                               
related  his understanding  that Alaska's  constitutional framers                                                               
went  for  the strongest  possible  language.   He  offered  this                                                               
requirement   provides   a    good   indication   that   Alaska's                                                               
constitutional  framers  intended  to   allow  the  governor  and                                                               
executive branch a great deal of authority over the budget.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. BURNS  answered absolutely.   He was  unsure of  the numbers,                                                               
but agreed only  a few states have a  three-quarter vote override                                                               
on  vetoes.   He highlighted  the  significance of  the types  of                                                               
votes that require  a three-fourths vote, such  as veto overrides                                                               
are  which  pertain  to  appropriations  issues.    This  further                                                               
indicates  the strong  desire of  the  constitutional framers  to                                                               
give the  executive branch the authority  over appropriations and                                                               
the budgetary process, he said.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO recalled only one  veto override during his nine-year                                                               
tenure with the legislature.   He characterized the veto override                                                               
as  a very  high  hurdle.   He  reiterated  his  belief that  the                                                               
constitutional  framers wanted  the  executive branch  to have  a                                                               
strong authority.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. BURNS  added the minutes  from the  constitutional convention                                                               
support that theory.  He  also noted Representative Gruenberg has                                                               
prepared  a  memorandum  that  discusses   this.    He  expressed                                                               
significant concern over  the most current version  of Section 49                                                               
of  SB  46,  which  essentially eliminates  the  ability  of  the                                                               
legislature to  exercise its  judgment in the  context of  a veto                                                               
override.  The non-severability  provisions basically say that if                                                               
the body  does not override  the veto, then the  entire provision                                                               
is non-severable  and all  appropriations fail.   He  offered his                                                               
belief Representative  Gruenberg's write-up addresses  that issue                                                               
admirably.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  recalled either  Mr. Burns or  Mr. Poag                                                               
said that Alaska  is the only state to have  a three-fourths vote                                                               
to override a veto.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
8:25:02 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHRISTOPHER  POAG, Assistant  Attorney General,  Labor and  State                                                               
Affairs  Section,  Civil  Division (Juneau),  Department  of  Law                                                               
(DOL), said  he reviewed a law  review memo a few  years ago that                                                               
indicated 43  states had adopted a  line item veto, and  of those                                                               
42  states  limit the  line  item  veto to  appropriation  bills.                                                               
Thus,  all but  one  state  affirm that  the  line  item veto  is                                                               
limited to appropriation  bills.  He said that  34 states require                                                               
a  two-thirds  vote  to  override  a  veto,  whereas  the  Alaska                                                               
legislature  has  a  two-thirds  vote to  override  an  immediate                                                               
effective date  clause and retroactive  provisions.   He stressed                                                               
that  a  two-thirds  vote  is  a  higher  hurdle  than  a  simple                                                               
majority.  Of the remaining  states, other than Alaska, most have                                                               
a  more   diluted  override,  either  a   three-fifth  or  simple                                                               
majority, he said.   At the time the article  was written, Alaska                                                               
was  the only  state  with  a three-fourths  veto  override.   He                                                               
related that  members' packets include  a copy of minutes  of day                                                               
49  and day  50 of  the  Alaska Constitutional  Convention.   The                                                               
delegates held  a discussion to amend  the three-quarter override                                                               
to  return  to  a  two-thirds  vote.    Additionally,  they  held                                                               
discussions  to  consider  requiring  an override  by  each  body                                                               
instead of  in a joint  session.  However, the  amendments failed                                                               
after heated  discussion.  The constitutional  framers determined                                                               
that the  three-quarter override  was necessary in  joint session                                                               
even though by doing so it  would dilute the Senate's power since                                                               
the Senate only has  20 members while the House has  40.  He said                                                               
the reason  for this is  clearly stated  and he quoted,  "We wish                                                               
for our  executive branch to have  a strong control of  the purse                                                               
strings."  He pointed out that  quote was picked up by the Alaska                                                               
Supreme  Court  in  the  Knowles  case  [Legislative  Council  v.                                                           
Knowles, 21 P.3d 367 (Alaska 2001)].                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. POAG  said it appears to  the DOL that this  provision is not                                                               
unique  among states  but  is a  clear  indication that  Alaska's                                                               
constitutional framers meant  for the line item veto  power to be                                                               
a strong  line item veto  power, not a weak  or diluted one.   He                                                               
said  Alaska's constitution  is unique  and has  a very  powerful                                                               
line item veto.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
8:27:41 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG asked for the date of the law article.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  POAG related  his understanding  that it  was in  1993.   He                                                               
offered to provide a copy to Representative Gruenberg.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  said it  was remarkable that  Alaska is                                                               
the only state  with a three-fourth veto override  and is another                                                               
factor  that distinguishes  Alaska, in  the event  of litigation.                                                               
He remarked that it is hard to find cases on this kind of issue.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
8:28:43 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KELLER  offered his belief  that this debate  is a                                                               
red herring; everyone  is fixated on the debate.   He offered his                                                               
further belief that  the budget process is not the  place to test                                                               
constitutionality.    He  pointed out  as  the  debate  continues                                                               
comments have  been made that  the legislature needs to  pass the                                                               
bill  in  order  to  test   its  constitutionality,  but  to  his                                                               
understanding by definition Article  II, Section 16, disqualifies                                                               
the  entire  debate  which  is   germane.    It  says  bills  for                                                               
appropriation shall  be confined  to appropriations.   He thought                                                               
to use this as a test of power seemed to be a stretch for him.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BURNS referred  to Article  II,  Section 13,  of the  Alaska                                                               
Constitution in  terms of  the confinement  provisions.   He said                                                               
that represents another  basis of support that  intrudes upon the                                                               
legislative bodies under Article II,  Section 16, to override the                                                               
veto  process.   He thought  the  two most  directly affected  by                                                               
Sections 48  and 49 are the  line item veto, Article  II, Section                                                               
15, and the confinement provisions, Article II, Section 13.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
8:31:04 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KELLER said  it seems that the  appropriate way to                                                               
address an  issue relating to  the governor's power would  be via                                                               
statute.  He thought perhaps one  germane topic could result in a                                                               
resolution.  He asked for comments.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BURNS responded  that  certainly the  process  by which  the                                                               
legislature  can   use  the   constitutional  language   and  the                                                               
authority   vested   in   the  governor's   office   is   via   a                                                               
constitutional  amendment.    That  is  the  appropriate  process                                                               
rather  than through  fiat to  amend the  constitution, which  is                                                               
what he believed was the attempt in  Sections 48 and 49 of SB 46,                                                               
he said.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO agreed  that Alaska has a  powerful executive branch.                                                               
However,  the power  of the  purse is  in the  legislature.   The                                                               
governor can't  add to the budget.   The governor can  deliver an                                                               
enormous  budget, but  the  legislature  can make  its  own.   He                                                               
thought  while  the  governor  and   the  executive  branch  have                                                               
significant input  that is only  as accepted by  the legislature.                                                               
He  pointed out  that  the legislature  could  reject the  entire                                                               
governor's budget  if it so chooses  and just write its  own.  He                                                               
surmised that the  legislature has the power and  should not lose                                                               
sight of the legislature's ability  and responsibility to account                                                               
for every dollar spent.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO noted one reason  why the legislature is arguing over                                                               
the energy  projects being  packaged in one  place is  because it                                                               
works to  dilute the legislature's  ability to account  for money                                                               
it is  spending.   He commented  that the  House has  an opposing                                                               
viewpoint.   In the event that  the Senate chooses to  leave this                                                               
language  out  of the  bill,  he  asked whether  the  legislature                                                               
should just drop  the constitutional question and wait  for it to                                                               
resurface or seek legal resolution.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
8:34:12 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG raised  the issue  of judicial  review.                                                               
He  reminded members  that since  Marbury v.  Madison [5  U.S. (1                                                             
Cranch)  137 (1803)]  the  judiciary  has had  the  final say  on                                                               
constitutionality, but  what is usually  overlooked has  been the                                                               
legislative review.   The legislature  has the  primary viewpoint                                                               
in  the  sense  of  first  view.   He  offered  his  belief  that                                                               
legislative review  is even more  important than  judicial review                                                               
because  so  few  cases  overturn   statutes.    He  opined  that                                                               
generally legislatures  do a fairly  good job with the  advice of                                                               
attorneys  general   and  legal  services   on  constitutionality                                                               
matters.   However, occasionally the concept  of executive branch                                                               
review  happens when  the legislature  passes something  which is                                                               
vetoed.  The legislature through  the judiciary committees, which                                                               
have  primary   jurisdiction  over  these  matters,   is  at  the                                                               
epicenter in  this case and many  other cases since they  are the                                                               
first to review bills for constitutionality, he pointed out.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
8:36:33 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BURNS  acknowledged Representative  Gruenberg  appropriately                                                               
articulated   this  in   his   memorandum   that  preserves   the                                                               
relationships  between  checks  and  balances,  as  well  as  the                                                               
legislature's  concerns in  preserving its  rights under  Article                                                               
II, Section 16,  in the veto override process.   The constitution                                                               
sets  a  clear process  to  follow,  with  respect to  bills  and                                                               
appropriations, and  to corrupt or  modify that process  to force                                                               
agreements that bootstrap things  is not appropriate procedurally                                                               
or constitutionally, he said.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  referred  to  Legislative  Council  v.                                                             
Knowles as  a paradigm.   As  a matter of  logic in  almost every                                                             
case, a conflict  of interest in the attorney  general's staff or                                                               
the  attorneys for  the legislative  branch arose.   He  said the                                                               
question the  attorneys must  ask is  whether they  represent the                                                               
people  or  the  alliance.     The  issue  is  ever  present  and                                                               
represents an essential question, he remarked.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
8:38:51 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BURNS responded  he will  not  hesitate to  answer that  his                                                               
responsibility  is   first  and   foremost  to   uphold  Alaska's                                                               
constitution.   He clarified that  he is  not at this  meeting to                                                               
represent the governor, although he  works in that capacity as an                                                               
appointed  attorney general.   However,  his  first and  foremost                                                               
responsibility, which  he believes is  clear in the  statutes, is                                                               
to uphold the constitution and  the statutes of this great state.                                                               
He   concluded   that  clearly   what   is   at  issue   is   the                                                               
constitutionality of Sections 48 and 49 of SB 46.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
8:39:49 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BURNS  referred  to  Section  49,  the  non-severability  or                                                               
inseverability section.  He said  that Section 49 exacerbates the                                                               
constitutional violation  because it  asks the courts  to empower                                                               
the  legislature to  do indirectly  what  the legislature  cannot                                                               
achieve directly.  Further, it  seeks to achieve through the back                                                               
door what the legislature cannot  achieve through the front door.                                                               
Section  49 effectively  says that  if the  bill the  legislature                                                               
proposes  through   the  contingency   is  invalid   by  usurping                                                               
constitutional  provisions, then  the court  must invalidate  the                                                               
entirety of  the appropriation.   He characterized Section  49 of                                                               
SB 46  as a "poison  pill."  Although  there are number  of cases                                                               
and legal treatises that have spent time discussing non-                                                                        
severability  and  deference provided  to  a  legislature in  the                                                               
context  of non-severability,  those cases  are inappropriate  at                                                               
the  federal level  since the  federal government  does not  have                                                               
line  item veto  authority.   However, the  distinction has  been                                                               
made with  respect to state  cases in which  non-severability has                                                               
been  evaluated  that  it  is   unconstitutional  when  the  non-                                                               
severability is being applied to  eclipse or usurp another body's                                                               
authority.  He said that is  precisely what is being sought to be                                                               
achieved  here and  what  makes  this non-severability  provision                                                               
problematic  and   unconstitutional.    He  reiterated   that  it                                                               
effectively  allows  the legislature  to  do  indirectly what  it                                                               
clearly cannot do directly.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   GATTO,  for   the   public's   benefit,  explained   that                                                               
severability in  this instance means if  any part of the  bill is                                                               
determined to  be unconstitutional, the  bill can be  severed and                                                               
the  remainder of  the bill  remains legal.   He  reiterated that                                                               
non-severability   means   if   one   part   of   the   bill   is                                                               
unconstitutional, then  the whole bill  is unconstitutional.   He                                                               
likened it to  the national health care bill in  that if one part                                                               
of the bill is found to  be unconstitutional, the whole law would                                                               
be  found  unconstitutional  since   the  health  care  bill  and                                                               
subsequent act do not contain  a severability clause.  He pointed                                                               
out that SB  46, the bill under discussion today  contains a non-                                                               
severability  clause  so  unfortunately the  "whole  thing  falls                                                               
apart."  He asked if he was correct.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
8:44:03 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. BURNS answered  absolutely.  He noted that  Alaska has passed                                                               
a statute  that presumes severability.   The statute says  to the                                                               
extent a portion  of a bill is invalid, the  invalid provision is                                                               
presumed  to be  severed  from  the remainder  of  the bill.  The                                                               
legislature would not  want to enact something  that was invalid.                                                               
The key,  however, is to  sever something and have  the remainder                                                               
stay in effect.  What  U.S. District Court Judge Vinson, Florida,                                                               
found with respect to the  Patient Protection and Affordable Care                                                               
Act (PPACA)  case in his  ruling in  Florida v. Health  and Human                                                             
Services   was  while   a  myriad   of  provisions   existed  the                                                             
requirement  of   mandatory  health   care  was   so  intricately                                                               
intertwined with  the entirety of the  bill that it could  not be                                                               
severed.    Additionally, because  Congress  had  not included  a                                                               
severability provision,  the court  was not  able to  "tease them                                                               
apart" so  the entirety  was held  to be invalid  due to  the one                                                               
unconstitutional provision.   He related  that flows  nicely into                                                               
the context  of what the  legislature is trying to  achieve here.                                                               
The Senate, via  Section 49, has sought to  infuse everything and                                                               
say  "you can't  pull them  apart."   However,  in reviewing  the                                                               
provisions in  Section 4  of the  bill, there is  not any  way to                                                               
construe the  projects as intricately intertwined  so they cannot                                                               
be pulled apart.   The premise on which the  Senate has sought to                                                               
achieve  this is  to say  the projects  fall under  AS 44.99.115,                                                               
which pertains  to energy policy.   Thus, since the  projects are                                                               
all energy related, although the  projects are not geographically                                                               
connected or interconnected, the  projects cannot be pulled apart                                                               
or  removed.    He  offered  his belief  that  a  review  of  the                                                               
individual  items reveals  that the  logic does  not flow  in the                                                               
context of a non-severability provision.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BURNS  concluded the  provisions  and  projects are  not  so                                                               
intricately intertwined  to the degree they  cannot be separated.                                                               
The  most significant  issue  is raised  in  the memorandum  from                                                               
Representative  Gruenberg  regarding  the  following  two  cases:                                                               
State v.  A.L.I.V.E. Voluntary,  606 P.2d  769 (Alaska  1980) and                                                             
Legislative Research  Committee v. Brown,  664 S.W. 2d  970, 925,                                                             
927-28 (Ky.  1984), a  Kentucky Supreme Court  case.   Both cases                                                               
discuss  it  is  not  possible  to  achieve  an  unconstitutional                                                               
objective through judicial fiat.   The legislature cannot ask the                                                               
court  to do  something it  cannot do.  However, he  related that                                                               
deference  is given  to the  legislature  in the  context of  its                                                               
drafting of  legislation, particularly given the  context of non-                                                               
severability   since   it   demonstrates  the   legislature   has                                                               
considered the matter.  He  offered his belief that the judiciary                                                               
is very  unlikely to give  such deference to allow  a legislative                                                               
body to usurp  or eclipse a power that is  clearly conferred upon                                                               
the executive branch.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  GATTO characterized  it  as  "just a  second  bite of  the                                                               
apple."                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
8:48:04 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG related  a  scenario in  which [SB  46]                                                               
passes  in its  current form,  the governor  imposes a  line item                                                               
veto, the  court rules  and finds two  sections [Sections  48 and                                                               
49]  unconstitutional.   He inquired  as to  whether it  would be                                                               
necessary to  sustain the line item  veto, or if the  court might                                                               
remand   the   case   by  issuing   a   simple   declaration   of                                                               
unconstitutionality.   In  that  instance  the legislature  could                                                               
determine whether to allow the line  item veto or redo the entire                                                               
bill, in other words, not make  the final decision on whether the                                                               
line item  veto would stand.   He related his  understanding that                                                               
two  different issues  exist:   first,  whether  the clauses  are                                                               
unconstitutional  and the  second,  what result  flows from  that                                                               
decision.   He said  he wasn't entirely  certain the  court would                                                               
reach the  second issue,  but it may  determine the  clauses were                                                               
unconstitutional and that the remedy  is up to the legislature to                                                               
decide.  He asked if anyone  has considered whether this would be                                                               
a likely outcome.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
8:50:35 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. BURNS hesitated to guess what  the court might do.  He agreed                                                               
the  court could  do either  thing.   He offered  his belief  the                                                               
court would first  look at Section 48,  the contingency language.                                                               
He   predicted    the   court    would   find    the   provisions                                                               
unconstitutional and  the provisions would  be stripped  from the                                                               
appropriation.   Next,  he thought  the court  will consider  the                                                               
non-severability provision.   He said that  courts typically view                                                               
provisions in  the context of severability  and non-severability.                                                               
The  question is  whether  the  non-severability provision  could                                                               
essentially be severed  from the remainder of the  bill while the                                                               
rest of the bill is kept  intact.  He anticipated the court would                                                               
do  just that  and find  Section 48  unconstitutional, and  would                                                               
find  the application  of  Section  49 as  the  Senate trying  to                                                               
achieve the  unconstitutional provision.  He  predicted the court                                                               
would sever  Section 49 from  the remainder  of the bill  and the                                                               
appropriation bill would proceed  forward with whatever line item                                                               
vetoes included.  He characterized  that approach as "certainly a                                                               
heck  of  a risk"  because  the  practical implications  of  such                                                               
posturing and  the concern  of going  to court  is the  effect it                                                               
would have  on the  projects in  the bill.   One  possible result                                                               
would be that the court puts  everyone back to "square one" which                                                               
would result in phenomenal delay for the energy projects.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  argued that sometimes the  courts reach                                                               
the same result,  not on the basis of severability  but rather on                                                               
the  basis of  abstention  and comity  and  refusal to  interject                                                               
itself into a co-equal branch of  government.  He found that this                                                               
issue  also  leads to  further  questions.    Even if  the  court                                                               
reached the  decision Mr.  Burns suggested,  the court  might not                                                               
direct a  remedy based on  abstention and  comity.  While  he did                                                               
not view  any constitutional impediment  or anything in  the bill                                                               
that would  prevent this from  happening, the  unfortunate result                                                               
could potentially  delay projects  past the  construction season.                                                               
He  wondered whether  the  court would  employ  comity, which  is                                                               
respect for the other branch  of government, or abstention, which                                                               
is another  way of  saying the  same thing,  and would  reach the                                                               
same result of "tossing the ball back" to the legislature.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
8:54:57 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BURNS acknowledged  that is  always a  distinct possibility,                                                               
particularly with  co-equal branches  of government, and  poses a                                                               
significant  risk.   He  hoped  that the  court  would view  this                                                               
language as so blatantly unconstitutional  as to strip it out and                                                               
sever it given  the context of Sections  48 and 49.   He said his                                                               
sense from  legal cases and  treatises and most  importantly from                                                               
the history  of the Alaska Constitutional  Convention with regard                                                               
to the  strong executive branch  relative to the line  item veto,                                                               
the striking or  reduction [would cause] the court  to find these                                                               
sections  so unconstitutional  as  to sever  them.   However,  he                                                               
reiterated that he cannot predict what the court will do.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  offered his  hope that was  this matter                                                               
to  be  litigated  that  both   sides  would  address  the  court                                                               
otherwise it could act without guidance of either counsel.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. BURNS assured  the committee that the  DOL would aggressively                                                               
articulate its position with the court.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
8:57:19 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO  speculated on a  scenario in which the  court upheld                                                               
Sections  48 and  49.   He  inquired as  to whether  it would  be                                                               
possible for  the legislature to  pass a one line  capital budget                                                               
appropriation bill and say, "take it or leave it."                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BURNS said  the real  concern is  that once  the legislature                                                               
starts down  that path it  is difficult  to stop.   For instance,                                                               
there could  be a  situation in which  a contingency  clause with                                                               
non-severability language  could be used  for any of  the primary                                                               
components  of  the  capital  budget,  including  transportation,                                                               
education, or facilities.  He  recalled a bankruptcy adage, "pigs                                                               
get fat, hogs get slaughtered" which  was given in the context of                                                               
overreaching  and   prefunding  retirement  plans.     The  court                                                               
typically  rules that  retirement plans  are exempt,  but in  one                                                               
instance someone loaded  it with millions of dollars.   The court                                                               
ruled that  clearly the intent  was to violate the  provisions of                                                               
law.   He asked, "Where  do you draw the  line?"  In  response to                                                               
comments,  he clarified  his point  is that  typically retirement                                                               
plans aren't  available to  be attached,  but someone  had loaded                                                               
the  retirement so  as to  eclipse the  exemption.   He made  the                                                               
analogous point that  if 105 items are bundled  together, why not                                                               
bundle 250 items, or  the entire bill.  He said  in Article 13 of                                                               
the  Alaska  State  Constitution, the  confinement  provision  is                                                               
clear that  there has to be  a nexus between the  purpose and the                                                               
appropriation.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. BURNS  offered his  belief that the  whole purpose  of giving                                                               
the executive branch strong authority  in the constitution in the                                                               
context of the  line item veto was to  eliminate "logrolling," or                                                               
the bundling together of items,  which essentially eliminates the                                                               
ability to evaluate into constrained, excessive spending.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
9:02:19 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. BURNS related that the  discussion has surrounded Article II,                                                               
Section 15, of  Alaska's constitution with respect  the line item                                                               
veto.     He  asserted   that  Sections  48   and  49   are  also                                                               
unconstitutional  with  respect  to  the  issue  of  Article  II,                                                               
Section  13,  or  the  confinement   provision.    He  said  that                                                               
according to Article II, Section  13, appropriation bills must be                                                               
confined  to  appropriations.    The  Alaska  Supreme  Court  has                                                               
indicated that  the confinement  clause prevents  the legislature                                                               
from enacting substantive  policy outside of the public  eye.  In                                                               
interpreting  the confinement  clause  the  Alaska Supreme  Court                                                               
adopted  a  five-part  assessment  commonly referred  to  as  the                                                               
Hammond test.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BURNS  reported the  Hammond  test  was articulated  in  the                                                             
Knowles case  mentioned by Representative Gruenberg  in his memo.                                                             
He related five tests were in  the Hammond test.  The contingency                                                               
provision and  intent language  inserted by the  Senate in  SB 46                                                               
failed the Hammond  test.  He related his  understanding that the                                                             
Senate based  the SB 46  bundling on  AS 44.99.115, which  is the                                                               
state  energy  policy.     He  stressed  the   importance  of  AS                                                               
44.99.115,   which  does   not  mandate   an  energy   policy  be                                                               
implemented  by   linking  energy  projects   or  appropriations.                                                               
Instead, AS  44.99.115 encourages  state agencies  to communicate                                                               
with  communities  to  determine  their needs  and  identify  and                                                               
develop  cost effective  sources of  energy.   Second, this  bill                                                               
violates the Hammond test since  it links appropriations within a                                                             
bill, which is not provided for  in AS 44.99.115, and in doing so                                                               
in this  appropriation bill, it effectively  amends existing law.                                                               
One of  the tests in  Hammond explains how  money is to  be spent                                                             
and  this goes  beyond  the minimum  necessary.   Third,  linking                                                               
appropriations  is a  direct attempt  to control  how monies  are                                                               
spent on  projects and SB  46 attempts to administer  the program                                                               
of  expenditures, which  again  is in  violation  of the  Hammond                                                             
test.    Fourth,  linking  appropriations  that  bear  no  direct                                                               
relationship to  one another  is not a  condition germane  to the                                                               
purpose of the  appropriation, which is again one  of the Hammond                                                             
tests.  He concluded these  conditions describe the concerns with                                                               
SB 46,  relative to  the confinement clause.   Setting  aside all                                                               
the legal  machinations discussed,  from a  practical perspective                                                               
Sections  48  and  49  bear  some discussion  and  comment.    By                                                               
including  these provisions,  essentially anyone  would have  the                                                               
right to  challenge the provisions.   The legislature, especially                                                               
in light of  Section 49 (b) would have the  authority, as well as                                                               
individual legislators  since it takes away  a legislator's right                                                               
in  the veto  override.   Additionally,  anyone who  is upset  or                                                               
perturbed by the language and  the attempt to usurp the executive                                                               
branch's  control could  effectively  disrupt  and challenge  the                                                               
validity of  that action via a  judicial process.  The  result is                                                               
to cloud  the projects such  that even if approved,  entities may                                                               
not  be able  to receive  the  appropriated funds.  Additionally,                                                               
obtaining financing could  prove difficult in light  of the cloud                                                               
that hangs over these projects.   Most importantly, the state has                                                               
a desire to  move the projects forward to completion  and to help                                                               
the  economy without  the necessity  to  wait for  a final  court                                                               
determination.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
9:07:08 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   GRUENBERG  disagreed   on  the   point  of   the                                                               
confinement clause because he did not see  the need to do so.  He                                                               
said the only  sentence in Article II, Section 13,  of the Alaska                                                               
constitution that  applies is:   "Bills for  appropriations shall                                                               
be  confined to  appropriations."   He  offered  his belief  that                                                               
specifically SB 46  is confined to appropriations.   He clarified                                                               
that  the language  does not  say one  appropriation must  have a                                                               
relation  to   another  appropriation,  but  they   must  all  be                                                               
appropriations.     The   only  items   that  are   arguably  not                                                               
appropriations and are  relevant in this case  are Sections 48(a)                                                               
and  49  of  the  bill.   He  indicated  these  sections  provide                                                               
instructions  on how  the appropriations  shall be  treated by  a                                                               
potential  vetoing authority  on  the one  hand  and a  potential                                                               
court on the  other.  He explained the  provisions are necessary,                                                               
therefore,  to  the drafter's  opinions  to  effectuate what  the                                                               
legislature wishes to do with respect to those appropriations.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
9:08:51 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. BURNS concurred that Section  13 does not articulate anything                                                               
beyond what  was just quoted.   However, he pointed out  that the                                                               
final determiner  of constitutional issues is  the Alaska Supreme                                                               
Court.   The Alaska Supreme  Court in two instances,  Hammond and                                                             
Knowles,  clearly articulated  what are  an appropriation  and an                                                             
item, by  listing five criteria, including  the minimum necessary                                                               
germaneness.     Notwithstanding  what  the   constitution  says,                                                               
evaluating the appropriation  in the context of  that litmus test                                                               
of five criteria balances this,  because in theory, one could use                                                               
language  that  says this  is  an  appropriation  and it  is  all                                                               
necessary.   Using the logic of  appropriateness of appropriation                                                               
anything  would  be  appropriate under  the  confinement  clause.                                                               
However, the Alaska Supreme Court  has already said that one must                                                               
consider the  content of what  is in the appropriation  to ensure                                                               
that it is truly an appropriation.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG related his  understanding then that Mr.                                                               
Burns  is saying  the language  on  its face  is not  necessarily                                                               
unconstitutional,  but  that applying  it  in  certain cases  may                                                               
violate the confinement clause concept.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BURNS  agreed  with  that  summation  and  deferred  to  Mr.                                                               
Bjorkquist.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
9:10:46 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  GATTO referred  the Section  13 language  in SB  46, which                                                               
requires    that   "appropriations    shall   be    confined   to                                                               
appropriations."   He asked  whether the  second plural  tends to                                                               
mean more than one appropriation.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
9:11:22 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
BRIAN BJORKQUIST,  Senior Assistant  Attorney General,  Labor and                                                               
State Affairs  Section, Department  of Law (DOL),  responded that                                                               
Chair Gatto is  correct that bills for  appropriation are limited                                                               
to appropriations,  but he noted  multiple appropriations  can be                                                               
contained in  an appropriation bill, which  typically does occur.                                                               
Appropriation  bills are  not  limited to  a  single subject  and                                                               
appropriations  can  occur for  multiple  subjects  and types  of                                                               
appropriation.    Thus,  so  long  as  the  bill  is  limited  to                                                               
appropriations  it  would  be   considered  constitutional.    He                                                               
concluded that is precisely what  the constitutional provision is                                                               
intended to  provide.  He  related the distinction is  that while                                                               
an  appropriation bill  is limited  to  appropriations it  cannot                                                               
include substantive  law.  An  appropriation is defined to  be an                                                               
item designated  for a  specific purpose  with a  funding source.                                                               
Therefore, as  long as  an appropriation bill  is limited  to the                                                               
definition  of  an appropriation  the  bill  is acceptable.    He                                                               
identified the  confinement clause  violated in SB  46 is  due to                                                               
the  linkage  of  various  appropriations to  each  other.    The                                                               
Hammond test needs to be  applied individually on an item-by-item                                                             
basis since each item represents  an appropriation.  He suggested                                                               
that an  appropriation for  one project,  such as  a transmission                                                               
line  on the  Kenai  Peninsula,  does not  have  a connection  to                                                               
another project, such as a  hydro project in Western or Southeast                                                               
Alaska.  The  language goes beyond what is  necessary to identify                                                               
what the money  is intended to be spent for  in that the language                                                               
with the appropriation  item itself identifies the  sum of money,                                                               
the purpose  for which it is  directed, and the source  of funds.                                                               
In the first  instance the language is directed  to the Intertie,                                                               
but there is no connection to the others, he said.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. BJORKQUIST pointed out it's  also instructive to consider the                                                               
intent language in Section 4 of  the current version of SB 46, on                                                               
page  98, lines  6-12, since  it begins  by describing  the state                                                               
energy policy,  but on  line 10 it  switches to,  "Therefore, the                                                               
legislature  intends  that  the  package  of  appropriations  and                                                               
projects listed  below are all  necessary to achieve  a statewide                                                               
balance  in addressing  the state's  diverse energy  needs."   He                                                               
asserted the  language in that sentence  creates substantive law.                                                               
That  sentence creates  a  new  energy program  or  a new  energy                                                               
policy  and  links  all  of  these  appropriations  together  "to                                                               
achieve  a statewide  balance in  addressing the  state's diverse                                                               
energy needs."   He said this connection of  projects creates the                                                               
problem.  He  suggested looking at it from the  standpoint of the                                                               
criteria  that  was  used  to   pick  these  projects  and  these                                                               
communities which  are now part  of what  is designated as  " ...                                                               
necessary  to achieve  a statewide  balance."   He further  asked                                                               
what criteria  was used  for other  projects and  communities not                                                               
included  in  this mix  of  appropriation.    He said  that  this                                                               
linkage  of  this  mix of  appropriations  represents  a  policy,                                                               
programmatic  decision  being  made   by  the  legislature.    He                                                               
suggested in  applying the Hammond  test that the  energy program                                                             
itself  results in  substantive law  and this  amends or  changes                                                               
what  is  in AS  44.99.115,  which  is  the state's  policy  that                                                               
focuses on helping individual communities  and does not mention a                                                               
statewide  balance.    He  related  that  the  linkage  of  these                                                               
projects, in terms of the  legislature administering a program of                                                               
expenditures, links  all of these  projects and  is administering                                                               
all of  the energy programs  by linking  all of the  projects and                                                               
appropriations together.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BJORKQUIST  said when  considering  an  appropriation as  an                                                               
individual item that identifies an  appropriation, a sum of money                                                               
designated for  a specific  purpose with  a funding  source, each                                                               
individual item  lists the amount  of the  appropriation, purpose                                                               
of the  appropriation, and funding  source of  the appropriation.                                                               
Thus,  each project  and  item  alone is  an  appropriation.   He                                                               
referred to  page 98, line 18,  of SB 46, noting  that the Alaska                                                               
Industrial  Develop &  Export Authority  (AIDEA) coal  to liquids                                                               
project  stands  on  its  own.    The  language  is  the  minimum                                                               
necessary  language  for the  appropriation.    He then  directed                                                               
attention to  the next  line, which he  opined is  superfluous to                                                               
the  first  appropriation  because  it goes  beyond  the  minimum                                                               
necessary language  necessary for that  particular appropriation.                                                               
Thus,  that  too  violates  the minimum  necessary  test  of  the                                                               
Hammond test.   He  reiterated that from  a practical  sense, the                                                             
linkage of  the projects  creates a problem  with respect  to the                                                               
confinement clause.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
9:17:45 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO  expressed concern with  the language that  says, "to                                                               
achieve a  balance" since 60  legislators must strike  a balance.                                                               
He  noted that  the  word "all"  has been  used  repeatedly.   He                                                               
offered his belief that the  statement itself is strongly subject                                                               
to  interpretation so  he was  unsure if  it would  be considered                                                               
illegal or irresponsible, regardless  he found it an unacceptable                                                               
justification for reaching a conclusion.   Thus, he dismissed the                                                               
conclusion because the justification for  it is unreasonable.  He                                                               
argued  that everyone  would  not agree  on  the proper  balance,                                                               
which is not possible to find for  all Alaskans.  He asked if the                                                               
aforementioned  is related  to the  legality  or non-legality  of                                                               
that section.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
9:19:04 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BJORKQUIST  thought his  comments  directly  related to  the                                                               
confinement  clause  in  that the  energy  policy  to  "identify,                                                               
assist  with the  development of  the most  cost effective,  long                                                               
term source of  energy for each community statewide."   This bill                                                               
selects all  of the projects  necessary for a  statewide balance,                                                               
but  the  selection  is  not  done  according  to  statute  since                                                               
criteria are  not in the statute  to identify each and  every one                                                               
of  these projects  as affecting  a statewide  balance.   He said                                                               
that is the  reason mentioning the language in SB  46 that refers                                                               
to  linking projects  for a  statewide balance,  is considered  a                                                               
substantive  decision.    It  is   not  an  appropriation  on  an                                                               
individual  item-by-item basis.   He  said he  agreed with  Chair                                                               
Gatto's assessment.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  GATTO pointed  out he  discussed  the differences  between                                                               
appropriation and allocation.  He  said an appropriation is a set                                                               
amount  of money  for projects,  but the  allocation is  for each                                                               
one.  However, the allocations can be swapped per Mr. Poag.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BJORKQUIST  acknowledged   statutory  provisions  allow  the                                                               
administration   to  move   money  between   allocations  of   an                                                               
appropriation under  the Fiscal  Procedures Act,  an area  of law                                                               
with which Mr. Poag is more conversant.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO  related his  understanding that  an "item"  could be                                                               
defined in several  ways, and therefore he  expressed interest in                                                               
discussing  defining the  term "item."   He  pointed out  that in                                                               
members'  packets the  memo from  Mr. Gardner  to Senator  French                                                               
describes an "item" in a manner which he thought was clear.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
9:22:43 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. BJORKQUIST acknowledged there  are several different ways for                                                               
the  legislature  to choose  to  make  an appropriation,  however                                                               
there  are consequences  for each.   Additionally,  with each  of                                                               
those options, the governor maintains  line item veto power.  The                                                               
Alaska  Supreme Court  has found  one historical  purpose of  the                                                               
line  item  veto is  to  prevent  "logrolling," which  he  opined                                                               
happens by linking  the projects together in Section 4  of SB 46.                                                               
He said that to  the extent a project is part  of an energy plan,                                                               
it is an energy plan created  in SB 46, which is substantive law.                                                               
In response to a question,  he offered his understanding that the                                                               
governor   has  line   item  veto   over  an   appropriation  and                                                               
consequences exist  to line  item veto  of an  appropriation that                                                               
contains allocations.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
9:24:10 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  maintained his dissent with  respect to                                                               
the  confinement issue.   He  said that  the only  constitutional                                                               
provision that is relevant is  the single sentence in Article II,                                                               
Section   13,  which   he   read,  as   follows:     "Bills   for                                                               
appropriations  shall  be  confined   to  appropriations."    The                                                               
aforementioned language does not  say that the legislature cannot                                                               
tie appropriations together; rather,  he opined that it considers                                                               
the entire  bill.  Therefore,  as long  as the entire  bill deals                                                               
solely with appropriations, the clear  text would seem to sustain                                                               
it.  He said he understood  the Hammond test, but did not believe                                                             
it  applied in  this particular  case because  the constitutional                                                               
text only considers the  bill as a whole.  Again,  as long as the                                                               
bill  is  an appropriation  bill  and  it doesn't  contain  other                                                               
things,  the sentence  has been  not violated.   He  ventured his                                                               
belief  that  the  discussion on  the  confinement  clause  would                                                               
happen if Section 48(a) and Section 49  were not in the bill.  He                                                               
said  if it  really was  a confinement  issue and  those sections                                                               
were not in the bill, the DOL  would likely argue that due to the                                                               
intent language  the confinement was violated.   He characterized                                                               
that by  itself as a  weak reed to lean  upon.  He  expressed the                                                               
committee's concern with  the effect of the two  clauses, but the                                                               
DOL's  argument focuses  on a  different part  of the  bill.   He                                                               
pointed to  the intent language  on page 98, which  he maintained                                                               
was simply  an expression  of legislative intent  and is  not any                                                               
more  binding than  a  policy  statement.   It  would  be like  a                                                               
resolution  in   the  sense  that   it  gives  a  sense   of  the                                                               
legislature.   However, from a  constitutional sense, he  said he                                                               
was unaware  it would carry  that authority.   He also  said that                                                               
the underpinning of his response  is to maintain the conversation                                                               
wouldn't be  happening today  were it not  for Section  48(a) and                                                               
Section 49.  The DOL's  argument doesn't deal with those sections                                                               
and the text of the constitution looks at the bill as a whole.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
9:27:58 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. BJORKQUIST clarified  that he didn't intend  for his comments                                                               
to  be  wholly focused  on  the  intent  language of  Section  4,                                                               
however, he did  believe the language is instructive as  to how a                                                               
court  would interpret  Section 48(a),  which links  the projects                                                               
together.  The two must be  read in combination with one another.                                                               
Additionally,  he  thought  that  Section  49  must  be  read  in                                                               
combination with  the other  two sections  to understand  what is                                                               
happening with  the bill as  a whole.  He  respectfully disagreed                                                               
that the  Hammond test isn't  instructive as to  the constitution                                                             
since the Alaska Supreme Court has  identified it as the test for                                                               
determining  the  confinement clause  and  when  it is  violated.                                                               
Thus,  the Alaska  Supreme Court  has already  given instruction,                                                               
which  identifies  that is  the  test  to  use to  interpret  the                                                               
constitution confinement clause.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN asked  Mr. Burns  to provide  a copy  of his                                                               
presentation to the committee.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. BURNS agreed to do so.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
9:29:50 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PRUITT  related that the legislature  must make an                                                               
assumption  that any  act is  automatically constitutional.   The                                                               
legislature relies on opposition to prove otherwise, he said.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. BURNS acknowledged what he  is referring to is considered the                                                               
rebuttable presumption,  which is  the assumption that  this body                                                               
will do things  that are constitutional.  However,  he noted that                                                               
just passing a  bill doesn't make it constitutional.   Thus, with                                                               
respect to Sections 48 and 49  of SB 46, the fact the legislature                                                               
passes it,  if it does, does  not mean that it  passes the litmus                                                               
test of rebuttable presumption of  constitutionality.  He related                                                               
the presumption is the legislature  presumes it is constitutional                                                               
and  the  court   looks  to  the  questions  of   whether  it  is                                                               
constitutional.   Based on  the reasons  just articulated  by the                                                               
DOL,  he  offered  his  belief  that  the  presumption  would  be                                                               
rebutted very quickly.   In response to a  question, he responded                                                               
that the court is the final determiner of constitutionality.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BURNS surmised  that  the goal  of  SB 46  was  to usurp  or                                                               
restrict the powers  of the governor, given the  concern over the                                                               
line  item veto.   He  said  just passing  a bill  does not  pass                                                               
constitutional muster until it is  challenged in court.  Everyone                                                               
taking  an  oath  of  office  has an  obligation  to  uphold  the                                                               
constitution.      He   acknowledged   Representative   Gruenberg                                                               
articulated this  well when  he said that  in large  measure, the                                                               
legislature  must  police  itself  since  legislative  oversight,                                                               
executive oversight,  and judicial  oversight exist and  the hope                                                               
and  desire is  that the  legislature  will review  the bill  for                                                               
legality  and  practicality  and   find  the  language  in  those                                                               
sections is inappropriate and will strip it from the bill.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO  said he  has a strong  appreciation for  actions the                                                               
Senate  took given  the use  of the  term retaliatory  veto.   He                                                               
offered his  belief the Senate did  not have any recourse  but to                                                               
seek enough votes  for a three-fourth veto override  in the event                                                               
the governor exercised  the line item veto.  He  further said the                                                               
committee  has   already  discussed   that  an  override   is  an                                                               
enormously high bar.   Thus, he related that given  the threat of                                                               
a  veto,  the  Senate  is  protecting  itself  by  inserting  the                                                               
language since  this is  too important to  allow the  governor to                                                               
exercise what he has already threatened to do.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
9:34:01 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BURNS remarked  that he  has not  seen any  indication of  a                                                               
retaliatory veto,  but clearly "two  wrongs never make  a right."                                                               
The governor  has an obligation  under Article II, Section  15 of                                                               
Alaska's constitution that  he shall return any  vetoed bill with                                                               
a statement of  his objection to the house of  origin.  Thus, the                                                               
governor would  be required to  explain the reason for  any veto,                                                               
which  in turn  empowers the  legislature to  override the  veto.                                                               
When  the  constitutional  founders evaluated  the  three-fourths                                                               
requirement, significant debate ensued.   The founders identified                                                               
that they knew it would  constrain the legislative body, but they                                                               
wanted checks and  balances and the power  to constrain excessive                                                               
spending within  the executive branch,  subject to the  burden of                                                               
the three-fourths vote  on a veto override.   He acknowledged the                                                               
clear risk,  but offered the  delegation considered the  risk and                                                               
decided that in  the context of the public arena  a governor must                                                               
justify the  decision, which serves  as an appropriate  check and                                                               
balance as  well.  He clarified  that the basis of  the objection                                                               
plus  the  legislature's  ability  to  override  a  veto  is  the                                                               
appropriate check and balance.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  GATTO questioned  whether simply  saying that  the capital                                                               
budget includes  a heat pump  for a  boat house is  too expensive                                                               
would constitute sufficient explanation or justification.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. BURNS  agreed it  could be  a justification for  a veto.   He                                                               
pointed out that  what was described was  excessive spending, and                                                               
he   ventured  the   governor  and   the  legislature   have  the                                                               
responsibility to  ensure expenditures  are in the  best interest                                                               
of the  public.  He  said to the extent  that $150,000 is  in the                                                               
budget for a heat pump may well be sufficient justification.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
9:37:16 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  THOMPSON, referring  to language  in Sections  48                                                               
and 49 of SB  46, asked how the language would  relate to a third                                                               
party litigant  that may object to  a hydro project.   He related                                                               
his understanding and concern that  such action could halt all of                                                               
the projects.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BURNS  agreed  that's  a real  concern  since  anyone  could                                                               
challenge the unconstitutionality  of a provision.   He related a                                                               
scenario in  which someone opposed  to the Susitna  hydro project                                                               
could   challenge   the   unconstitutionality  of   Section   48.                                                               
Additionally,  as discussed  by Representative  Gruenberg's memo,                                                               
any legislator  whose ability to  exercise judgment has  now been                                                               
eclipsed by Section 49(b) could also  raise a challenge.  He said                                                               
the  practical  implications  were  that  while  this  may  be  a                                                               
wonderful,   theoretical,   and   academic   issue,   significant                                                               
implications exist in reality as to these projects.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
9:39:43 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KELLER  related his  understanding that this  is a                                                               
policy  question  first.    He  recalled  the  comment  that  the                                                               
judicial review is  the final say, but pointed out  that in terms                                                               
of  the sovereignty  of what  is in  the constitution  the [final                                                               
say] is  had by  Alaskans.   There is  an initiative  process and                                                               
ultimately the final decision rests with the people.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
9:42:19 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  said he  hoped that  the bill  would be                                                               
resolved and not proceed to  court and expressed concern that the                                                               
bill would  set a  precedent.   He said  he thought  the question                                                               
would  be on  a  smaller scale  as  to whether  a  clause or  two                                                               
clauses  would be  constitutionally  permissible.   He related  a                                                               
scenario in  which a dam and  intertie are directly related.   He                                                               
suggested a  small clause could  be appropriate to link  the two.                                                               
He asked  whether it  would be appropriately  linked in  terms of                                                               
the constitution.   He  referred to  the A.L.I.V.E.  Voluntary v.                                                             
State case, since  the majority and minority  dissent was exactly                                                             
on this  point.  He explained  that the majority, on  a 3-2 vote,                                                               
said  that to  tie  two things  together  the legislature  cannot                                                               
impinge the constitutional right of  the governor to sever.  It's                                                               
not  a question  of  the  benefit policy  wise,  but whether  the                                                               
legislature itself  could do so, or  whether it must be  only the                                                               
governor.  He asked whether  the Alaska constitution would permit                                                               
even a "mini tie-together clause."                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BURNS offered  his belief  that there  may be  situations in                                                               
which  there  is   a  very  close  nexus,   meeting  the  Hammond                                                             
requirements, and  connectivity in which a  linkage makes perfect                                                               
sense.   Again, it's  a balancing  of the  confinement provisions                                                               
and Article  II, Section  15, of  the Alaska  State Constitution,                                                               
which  discusses the  ability  to  line item  veto  to strike  or                                                               
reduce.  He said it must be a  situation in which there is a very                                                               
clear  nexus between  one item  and  another item,  such that  in                                                               
isolation neither  item has any  value.  Although there  could be                                                               
instances, they would  be rare and would be evaluated  on a case-                                                               
by-case basis.  With regard  to Representative Keller's comments,                                                               
Mr. Burns noted his agreement that  this is about a process.  The                                                               
process  for  appropriation bills  is  critical  since it  allows                                                               
vetting  and  all parties  to  have  a  say.   However,  creating                                                               
agreements "behind  the doors" emasculates that  type of process.                                                               
Again, this  is about  a process  and transparency  of government                                                               
doing  things appropriately.    The  constitution envisions  that                                                               
transparent   process  and   it  is   the  legislature   and  the                                                               
administration's obligation to ensure that happens, he said.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
9:48:00 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
The committee took an at-ease from 9:48 a.m. to 9:58 a.m.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
9:58:31 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DOUG   GARDNER,  Director,   Legislative   Legal  and   Resources                                                               
Services, Legislative Affairs Agency,  began by reminding members                                                               
he has a  duty of confidentiality to all 60  legislators and that                                                               
the agency  is a policy  neutral organization.  He  said although                                                               
he  agrees  with much  of  the  attorney general's  comments,  he                                                               
disagrees with some of the  analyses and conclusions.  He offered                                                               
his belief  that another side of  the issue exists.   However, he                                                               
reiterated his role  is not to advocate for  a specific position,                                                               
but  to   answer  questions.    He   agreed  with  Representative                                                               
Gruenberg's analysis that  this case is not  a confinement clause                                                               
case.  He said  he did not think the Hammond  test is violated by                                                             
any  of  the provisions  discussed,  including  Section 4  intent                                                               
language.  He also did not  think anyone in the room thought that                                                               
the intent  language and  allocations in  Section 4  were legally                                                               
binding.    He related  that  Section  4  language has  a  stated                                                               
purpose and a funding source  has been identified.  He reiterated                                                               
he did not believe the case was a confinement clause case.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GARDNER  agreed  with   both  Representative  Gruenberg  and                                                               
Attorney General  Burns, to  the extent that  the issue  has been                                                               
framed as  a separation of powers  issue.  He offered  his belief                                                               
that this  case is a  classic separation of powers  issue between                                                               
the legislature's  prerogative to  appropriate and  the executive                                                               
branch's derivative  power to strike or  reduce appropriations in                                                               
the  line item  veto  process.   He  noted  that  Pam Finley  was                                                               
legislative counsel  in Legislative  Council v. Knowles,  21 P.3d                                                             
367 (Alaska  2001), a confinement  clause case, and  therefore he                                                               
collaborated  with Ms.  Finley on  drafting the  memorandums from                                                               
the agency.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
10:03:13 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. GARDNER noted his agreement  with Attorney General Burns that                                                               
the two remaining  issues are the cross  contingencies in Section                                                               
48, to which he will refer  to as the contingencies, and the non-                                                               
severability clause.   He then  provided an  overview reinforcing                                                               
that Section 4  deals only with the  non-severability clause with                                                               
respect to  the energy projects.   With regard to  the suggestion                                                               
that  there  is  an  imbalance in  the  constitutional  framework                                                               
between the  legislative prerogative to appropriate  and the more                                                               
limited power of the governor,  as described by the Knowles case,                                                             
to  strike  or   reduce  an  appropriation.    Thus   far  SB  46                                                               
articulates if  all the  energy projects  cannot be  funded, then                                                               
none of  the projects should  be funded.   He offered  his belief                                                               
the legislature  is "pushing the  envelope" on  its appropriation                                                               
power  and SB  46 places  a significant  burden on  the governor,                                                               
which  may  be considered  by  some  a  Draconian result  if  the                                                               
governor were  to strike or  reduce any of the  appropriations in                                                               
the bill in Section 4.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. GARDNER  the related that  if an appropriation  is contingent                                                               
and the governor [uses his veto power], the result of the non-                                                                  
severability clause is the parties "come  back to zero."  One way                                                               
to view  the situation  is that  it is  indeed a  perfect balance                                                               
despite  the extreme  circumstances in  which a  large number  of                                                               
projects are  tied together with  contingencies.  He  pointed out                                                               
the  funding  remains for  appropriation.    Perhaps the  framers                                                               
realized both parties  would still have to work  together in some                                                               
way in order  to move forward.  He then  recognized the alternate                                                               
view  offered by  Representative Gruenberg  that the  legislature                                                               
appropriates, the governor uses a  line item veto, and the remedy                                                               
is  contained in  the veto  override  of Article  II of  Alaska's                                                               
constitution.  Although  there is the possibility  that the court                                                               
would  avoid the  contingency analysis  and thereby  not have  to                                                               
address the contingency,  he was unsure how easy it  would be for                                                               
the court to do so.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
10:08:18 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GARDNER returned  to Mr.  Burns' earlier  question regarding                                                               
whether  this could  be  done  "a little  bit,"  and offered  his                                                               
belief  that fact  patterns do  exist [to  support doing  this "a                                                               
little bit"].   For example,  the Snettisham project  consists of                                                               
separate items or allocations within  an appropriation for a dam,                                                               
a power  transmission line, an  undersea cable,  and distribution                                                               
center.   He  opined  it would  be difficult  to  argue that  the                                                               
legislature would want one without  the other, so a nexus exists.                                                               
Therefore, it would  be hard to conceive of a  situation in which                                                               
the  legislature   would  appropriate  funds  for   the  dam  and                                                               
substation without  the cable and  it would also be  shocking for                                                               
the governor to  strike one of the items.   He suggested that the                                                               
discussion needs  to probe deeper  and look  beyond contingencies                                                               
preventing a line  item veto, which is difficult  given that it's                                                               
a  political conundrum  for which  the  outcome is  unknown.   He                                                               
highlighted  that  in the  Knowles  case  the discussion  by  the                                                             
Alaska  Supreme   Court  suggested  that   contingencies  closely                                                               
related  to the  appropriation would  be appropriate,  while ones                                                               
that held  less of  a nexus or  relationship might  not withstand                                                               
scrutiny.   He  then referred  to  the Karcher  case [Karcher  v.                                                           
Kean, 479 A.2d 403, 412 (New  Jersey 1984)] cited by Mr. Burns in                                                             
which  there  is  no  question   the  court  observed  that  most                                                               
legislative appropriations  do have  some kind of  contingency or                                                               
other reason for them.  Mr.  Gardner stated he was unaware of any                                                               
cases,   produced   by   either  party,   which   indicate   that                                                               
contingencies are a non-starter.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GARDNER  explained  that the  aforementioned  increases  the                                                               
difficulty in advising  the legislature since some  cases allow a                                                               
"little  bit" of  contingency or  suggest some  contingencies are                                                               
allowed, although it has not been  defined as to how broadly that                                                               
could occur.   He  related agreement  with Mr.  Burns that  SB 46                                                               
represents  a broad  contingency and  may be  one of  the broader                                                               
contingencies that  the bodies  have had to  consider.   Thus, it                                                               
exposes an argument of how a  wind generation project in one part                                                               
of the state and an  electrical transmission line in another part                                                               
of the  state are related and  whether enough of a  nexus exists.                                                               
He said  he was unsure  of what  action the Alaska  Supreme Court                                                               
would take.   However, he offered  his view, with respect  to the                                                               
Snettisham project,  that one would understand  that striking one                                                               
element would  eliminate the whole  project.  With respect  to SB
46, the question  is whether a governor would  really expect that                                                               
striking  a  wind  generation project  in  Western  Alaska  would                                                               
eliminate all  of the  other energy  projects in  the bill.   The                                                               
countervailing  point would  be  how the  term  "nexus" would  be                                                               
defined and  whether it  would be  a physical  nexus such  as the                                                               
case with the Snettisham project  in which the nexus is physical,                                                               
financial, and functional.  He  suggested that one result of this                                                               
case  is that  the Alaska  Supreme  Court would  specify for  the                                                               
legislature the  type and  scope of  contingencies that  would be                                                               
allowable.   In this case  [SB 46], it  could be argued  that the                                                               
nexus  is an  equitable distribution  as  one of  the bodies  has                                                               
articulated the  projects represent an equitable  distribution of                                                               
energy projects in  a very diverse state.  Thus,  if the projects                                                               
represent  an   equitable  distribution,  the   question  becomes                                                               
whether the  projects represent  enough of a  nexus to  support a                                                               
finding  that the  contingencies  are constitutional  and do  not                                                               
offend the  notion of strike  or reduce.   He offered  his belief                                                               
that arguments exist  on both sides of that issue  and it will be                                                               
a very  difficult point for  the Alaska Supreme Court  to decide.                                                               
In  conclusion, Mr.  Gardner said  he  did not  believe that  the                                                               
confinement  clause is  a significant  issue at  this point,  and                                                               
therefore he disagreed with the DOL on that point.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
10:15:06 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  GATTO asked  whether the  entire capital  budget could  be                                                               
listed as a  single project since the projects  all represent the                                                               
state's infrastructure, in which case  the governor could take it                                                               
or leave it.  He surmised  that everyone could agree with respect                                                               
to  the  Snettisham  project  that one  element  has  no  meaning                                                               
without the  other components.  However,  the legislature doesn't                                                               
agree  that a  windmill  and building  an  elementary school  800                                                               
miles away  are connected.   He inquired  as to whether  the term                                                               
"nexus" could be defined.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GARDNER  responded  that  the   agency  has  suggested  some                                                               
elements in  its May 3,  2011, memo to  Representative Gruenberg.                                                               
He said he would have a  difficult time arguing an entire capital                                                               
budget had the type of  nexus that was appropriate that respected                                                               
the  governor's executive  branch line  item veto  power and  the                                                               
legislature's ability to appropriate and address concerns.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
10:17:41 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. GARDNER, in  response to a question, pointed out  that if the                                                               
entire capital budget were considered  linked, it would represent                                                               
an   extreme  view   and   unlikely  a   court   would  find   it                                                               
constitutional.   However, a court  would likely find that  a dam                                                               
and a  power line were  connected in terms  of constitutionality.                                                               
He  offered  his  belief  that  "what  we're  presented  with  is                                                               
something in the middle, probably  more towards the upper end and                                                               
a  little harder  to  defend."   He  indicated  that whether  the                                                               
energy projects represent a fair  and equitable distribution is a                                                               
question he cannot answer.  One  of the issues upon which lawyers                                                               
advise their  clients and  which he  would do,  were he  asked by                                                               
Legislative  Council, is  that going  before  the Alaska  Supreme                                                               
Court over a novel issue of  constitutional law may not result in                                                               
exactly what  was desired and  could result in  some intermediate                                                               
position   that  may   change   how   appropriations  are   done.                                                               
Therefore, the  exploration of a  novel constitutional  issue has                                                               
some real consequences for both sides.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO  asked whether Legislative  Council has some  sort of                                                               
superior position with respect to making determinations.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. GARDNER  explained that the Legislative  Council converts the                                                               
legislature's attorneys into advocates  if the council authorizes                                                               
the attorneys to  represent the legislature.  At  that point, the                                                               
attorneys  become advocates,  take  a  position, and  essentially                                                               
litigate with the DOL.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO asked  how the agency's attorneys can  be an advocate                                                               
for one body if the two bodies of the legislature disagree.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GARDNER responded  that sometimes  the agency  hires outside                                                               
counsel,  though he  did not  think this  would be  one of  those                                                               
situations.   He  pointed out  that his  current role  is "policy                                                               
neutral,"  which   would  change   if  the   Legislative  Council                                                               
otherwise authorized.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
10:20:56 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  pointed out that one  advantage to this                                                               
type of  litigation is  that it first  goes through  the Superior                                                               
Court and then to the Alaska  Supreme Court; the trial courts are                                                               
helpful to  the advocates.   He  said he  had not  considered the                                                               
dimension of time.   Often an item is struck in  a line item veto                                                               
not  because  of  the  merits  of the  project  but  due  to  the                                                               
inability to  afford it all at  once.  Thus, two  things could be                                                               
linked  together, but  the projects  cannot be  completed all  at                                                               
once.   He  pointed out  that the  [DOL] attorneys  represent the                                                               
executive  branch  but not  from  the  budget perspective.    The                                                               
governor  and   the  executive  branch,  he   surmised,  will  be                                                               
concerned  about the  cost at  that point  in time,  particularly                                                               
because of  the anti-lapse  statute that  gives these  projects a                                                               
five-year   life  before   the  project   must  go   through  the                                                               
reappropriation mode.  He concluded if  that were the basis for a                                                               
reduction, or potentially a strike,  and the legislature has tied                                                               
projects  together  in  toto  it  could  cause  a  constitutional                                                               
problem.   The governor must be  able to represent the  state and                                                               
the  budget  over time  as  well  as a  snapshot  in  time.   The                                                               
aforementioned fact  argues strongly for the  governor having the                                                               
maximum flexibility in this area, he said.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   GRUENBERG  surmised   that  it   would  not   be                                                               
beneficial to obtain  any legal opinions since  so many variables                                                               
exist.  Instead,  he hoped the negotiation process  would wind up                                                               
eliminating  the two  clauses since  litigation could  cause more                                                               
problems than  it would solve.   He offered his belief  that this                                                               
hearing  is  focused  only  on the  constitutional  issues.    He                                                               
thought this  sets a dangerous  precedent and this "has  got more                                                               
wrinkles than the rear end of a hippo."                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
10:25:01 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. GARDNER  offered his  belief that as  the process  has ensued                                                               
the non-severability has  been changed and redrafted  and that in                                                               
and  of  itself  demonstrates  the legislature  is  just  at  the                                                               
beginning of  a complex process  with permutations that  have not                                                               
been  considered.   He opined  that exploring  the constitutional                                                               
issues could raise issues not considered.   He was unsure of what                                                               
action the Alaska Supreme Court would take during litigation.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
10:26:27 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  THOMPSON asked  his  view on  how  a third  party                                                               
litigant could bring the process to a halt.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
10:26:51 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
PAM FINLEY,  Revisor of Statutes, Legislative  Legal and Research                                                               
Services,  Legislative Affairs  Agency (LAA),  explained that  if                                                               
the governor  does not use his  line item veto power  or does and                                                               
the legislature overrides  the veto, then a  third party litigant                                                               
would have  nothing to gain  by litigating  the constitutionality                                                               
of  SB 46.   The  courts might  say that  the contingency,  which                                                               
really  hasn't  been  triggered,   probably  was  invalid.    She                                                               
explained  that the  non-severability  will only  take effect  if                                                               
there is  a veto and there  isn't an override of  the veto, which                                                               
may result in  many people in court.   The fear has  been that if                                                               
the  legislature and  the executive  branch did  not trigger  the                                                               
non-severability,  someone  else could  use  the  provision.   As                                                               
currently written coming  out of the Senate, a  third party could                                                               
not use  it to  stop a  project such  as the  Susitna Dam  or any                                                               
other project.   However,  if the  legislature and  the executive                                                               
branch are in court, probably a third party could also weigh in.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON  said if  future litigation were  to take                                                               
place, it  would not  have a backwards  effect on  other projects                                                               
contained in Section 4 of SB 46.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS.  FINLEY related  her understanding  that if  the Susitna  Dam                                                               
project was  challenged on  some other  grounds, this  bill would                                                               
not affect it.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO posed  a scenario in which project  31 was challenged                                                               
and the Susitna  Dam was listed as project 40,  and asked whether                                                               
the 40 projects would then be  in limbo waiting for resolution of                                                               
project 31.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS.  FINLEY answered  yes, noting  it  would be  worse than  that                                                               
since  the possibility  of  challenge  would prevent  contractors                                                               
from proceeding due to the projects being in limbo.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO  understood the contractors'  issue, but  also wanted                                                               
to ascertain  whether he understands  the legal issue.   He noted                                                               
that project 40 is also vulnerable  if a lawsuit is filed against                                                               
another project.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. FINLEY agreed, assuming that  the contingency clause has been                                                               
triggered and everyone is in court.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
10:30:06 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON,  referring to the language  with respect                                                               
to  achieving statewide  balance to  address the  state's diverse                                                               
energy  needs, pointed  out people  in  Nulato may  not feel  the                                                               
project is equitable.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GARDNER  said  he  did  not mean  to  suggest  that  he  was                                                               
endorsing any of the arguments,  but instead was simply observing                                                               
that the  language included  by the  Senate would  be one  of the                                                               
arguments advanced for the nexus.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
10:30:59 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GARDNER,  referring  to the  non-severability  clause,  said                                                               
although it's conceivable that an  outcome could occur one way or                                                               
the other on the nexus analysis,  the case law indicates that the                                                               
inclusion of a  non-severability clause is an  instruction to the                                                               
court that says  if it doesn't work the way  it intended, take it                                                               
out.  Thus, Section 4 would  be deleted.  Mr. Gardner highlighted                                                               
that it's difficult  to predict how the court would  apply a non-                                                               
severability  analysis in  the context  of appropriations,  given                                                               
the two constitutional provisions.   He acknowledged issues exist                                                               
and that  one can't  definitively say the  court won't  carve out                                                               
some  type  of  separate provision  for  non-severability  clause                                                               
enforcement in the context of appropriations.  However, non-                                                                    
severability clauses get enforced such  as what occurred in Brown                                                             
[Comm'n v.  Brown, 664  S.W.2d 907,  919 (Ky.1984)],  although he                                                             
acknowledged  the distinctions  between the  cases.   Although he                                                               
agreed with  Mr. Poag that those  cases are as good  as the state                                                               
and the constitutional law that's in place, he maintained non-                                                                  
severability clauses  tend to  get enforced  and there  isn't any                                                               
reason  to  suspect otherwise.    Therefore,  if the  contingency                                                               
clause is  found to  be unconstitutional, the  net result  due to                                                               
the  non-severability  clause could  be  no  energy projects,  as                                                               
outlined in  Section 4 of SB  46 as it's currently  written would                                                               
go forward.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  did   not  recall  a  non-severability                                                               
clause ever  being included in  an appropriation bill.   He asked                                                               
for clarification.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
10:33:50 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. FINLEY responded that she  was unsure whether there has never                                                               
been one,  but she did not  recall any.  However,  there may have                                                               
been non-severability clauses in substantive legislation.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG asked  that  this  issue be  researched                                                               
further, and that the result get disseminated in writing.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS. FINLEY said  one of the problems with  the contingency clause                                                               
and the non-severability  clause is that in  this particular case                                                               
they  wind up  in the  same  place though  conceptually they  are                                                               
quite different.   She referred  to the Alaska  Seafood Marketing                                                               
Institute (ASMI) appropriation in the  Knowles case, in which the                                                             
legislature said  that the appropriation  was contingent  on ASMI                                                               
having no  out-of-state employees  above a range  of about  21 or                                                               
22.   The courts ruled  that was  a violation of  the confinement                                                               
clause.  The court next needed  to determine whether to sever the                                                               
bad  contingency from  the appropriation.   In  other words,  the                                                               
question  became does  ASMI get  funded  despite the  confinement                                                               
clause violation.   In Knowles, the  court found the state  has a                                                             
general presumption  of severability  and it severed  the clause.                                                               
However, she  urged members to  consider situations in  which the                                                               
legislature  does not  want  to fund  a project  so  it places  a                                                               
contingency on the funding.   Thus, the legislature would place a                                                               
non-severability clause  to signal to  the court  the legislative                                                               
intent not to  fund a project.  She reiterated  that the concepts                                                               
are different and can be different in other situations.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
10:37:06 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  agreed and added that  his question for                                                               
research should also include contingency clauses.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO recalled the Carlson  case involving fishing fees for                                                             
resident and nonresident fishermen.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MS.  FINLEY responded  the  case  was not  a  contingency just  a                                                               
violation  of the  constitution.   She noted  that he  is correct                                                               
that it  is related to the  ASMI contingency case, but  the court                                                               
struck  down the  ASMI contingency  not  for the  same reason  it                                                               
struck down the  Carlson case just mentioned.  The  ASMI case was                                                             
an attempt  to place substantive  law into an appropriation.   If                                                               
the legislature wanted  to do that, then it needed  to pass a law                                                               
specifying ASMI may not employ  out-of-state employees, which may                                                               
have been  unconstitutional.  Still, the  requirement should have                                                               
been in  substantive law.  In  response to whether the  state can                                                               
insist  that an  oil company  have  80 percent  Alaska hire,  Ms.                                                               
Finley responded that she was not  prepared to answer that at the                                                               
moment.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
10:39:45 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  KELLER asked  when it  might be  advantageous for                                                               
the legislature  to have a case  go to the Alaska  Supreme Court.                                                               
He  inquired as  to whether  there is  any instance  in which  it                                                               
would  be wise.   He  thought thoroughly  vetting an  issue could                                                               
lead to a decision being based on debate and records.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. GARDNER said he prefers not  to comment on policy.  He agreed                                                               
that going  to court  provides an answer  to the  question asked,                                                               
but  as Representative  Gruenberg suggested  it may  be that  the                                                               
question is  formulated differently.   He suggested  that lawyers                                                               
are generally  risk-averse, and prefer  to have control  of their                                                               
own destiny.   He speculated that most try to  keep their clients                                                               
out of  court whenever possible.   He concluded that  it's always                                                               
preferable  to  avoid  court  and   he  could  not  imagine  many                                                               
situations   unless  an   unresolvable  crisis   existed  and   a                                                               
constitutional  matter needed  to  be unraveled.   However,  when                                                               
there are  other approaches  to be  taken, lawyers  would suggest                                                               
those approaches should be pursued first.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
10:43:07 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  PAUL   SEATON  commented  that   the  legislature                                                               
frequently  uses fair  and  equitable  distribution with  various                                                               
projects,  including schools.    He pointed  out  that under  the                                                               
latest version  of SB  46 many  things have  been moved  from the                                                               
"item" column  to the "allocation"  column.  He then  related his                                                               
understanding that for allocations,  the agency, with the consent                                                               
of  the Office  of  Management  & Budget  (OMB),  can move  those                                                               
appropriations; that is change the numbers.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. FINLEY  posed an example  in which there were  three bridges,                                                               
one of which costs a little more  and one of which costs a little                                                               
less;  the point  of the  allocation  is for  the legislature  to                                                               
essentially allow the  executive branch to move  the funding with                                                               
the OMB's  approval.  She  said she  has serious doubts  that the                                                               
executive branch could decide to  build one of the three bridges,                                                               
but not  the other two  since it would  likely be a  violation of                                                               
the  appropriation  power.    However,  that  issue  hasn't  been                                                               
litigated.  The legislature, she  said, lists the bridges because                                                               
it  wants  them built.    If  the  executive branch  ignored  the                                                               
allocations   and  decided   to  only   build  one   bridge,  the                                                               
legislature would stop doing allocations, she predicted.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO  suggested it would  be reasonable to say  the bridge                                                               
over  the Yukon  River  is  necessary to  carry  heavy pipe,  and                                                               
therefore take additional funding from  bridges two and three and                                                               
put it toward bridge one.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS. FINLEY responded  she was unsure of how that  action would be                                                               
viewed  by either  the court  or the  legislature.   However, she                                                               
acknowledged some funding could be moved.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO inquired  as to whether some money or  a little money                                                               
could be moved,  which he interpreted as  the item/project having                                                               
been over funded.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS.  FINLEY  explained  that allocations  are  used  because  the                                                               
amount needed  is not a  certain amount, but only  an approximate                                                               
amount.   Thus,  the actual  costs for  construction may  come in                                                               
over or  under the projected  cost, which is why  adjustments are                                                               
allowed.  In  response to a further question,  she clarified that                                                               
the  bill   contains  allocations  in   Section  4  as   well  as                                                               
appropriations and  some items,  such as the  large hydroelectric                                                               
projects, only are appropriations.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
10:47:25 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO  noted that the  cover letter indicates  the projects                                                               
are listed  as allocations and the  proposed committee substitute                                                               
modifies the intent  language.  He opined that  was a significant                                                               
change.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
10:48:00 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON related  his  understanding  that when  it                                                               
went  from Version  B to  Version S,  the items  were changed  to                                                               
allocations.   He  questioned whether  using "allocations"  gives                                                               
the executive  branch the legislature's authority  to appropriate                                                               
by  allowing  the  executive  branch to  change  the  amount  the                                                               
legislature appropriated.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS.  FINLEY answered  yes;  allocations give  more  power to  the                                                               
executive branch in  terms of where the funds are  spent.  If the                                                               
legislature wants  funds only to  be spent on a  specific project                                                               
such as project  "x" it needs to appropriate to  project "x."  In                                                               
instances in which  the legislature is willing  to allow movement                                                               
of  funds,   the  legislature  sets  an   appropriation  plus  an                                                               
allocation for  that appropriation.   Historically,  the governor                                                               
has used a  line item veto on allocations and  changed the amount                                                               
of the appropriation up above.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO asked if an  appropriation is allocated as 50 percent                                                               
to each of two projects, but  the governor moves it to 60 percent                                                               
[for one  project] and 40  percent [for another  project], he/she                                                               
has essentially vetoed an allocation.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. FINLEY  said that is  the reason  she was reluctant  to agree                                                               
that all  the funding could  be moved since it  essentially would                                                               
undermine the legislature's allocation power.   The law is as yet                                                               
uncertain about this, she noted.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
10:51:38 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GARDNER, in  response  to  Representative Seaton's  question                                                               
regarding the  power given to  the governor, referred to  page 99                                                               
of the bill.  For  example, the $16,333,000 appropriation for the                                                               
Alaska Energy Authority  has been broken down  into the following                                                               
allocations:  $1  million for the Alaska Energy  Plan, $5 million                                                               
for bulk fuel upgrades, $330,000  for electrical emergencies, and                                                               
$10 million for the Rural Power  System.  If the governor decided                                                               
to  line item  veto the  $1 million  for the  Alaska Energy  Plan                                                               
allocation, the  governor's practice has  been to go to  the main                                                               
appropriation  and reduce  it to  $15,333,000.   He characterized                                                               
the practice as  a mutual respect between the line  item veto and                                                               
the legislature being  willing to give enough  flexibility to put                                                               
things into  an allocation.   He  said there has  not been  a net                                                               
result  in which  other  projects have  been  increased within  a                                                               
category of appropriation.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
10:53:16 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG pointed  out  that there  is an  Alaska                                                               
Supreme Court case that requires  the governor to reduce the full                                                               
amount  because the  effect would  be to  increase the  remaining                                                               
items.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  GATTO acknowledged  that  the funding  would  drift up  to                                                               
another item.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS.  FINLEY concluded  that  moving the  funding  without a  veto                                                               
might be an illegal use of the appropriation.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   GATTO   and   REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG   offered   their                                                               
understanding that  such a  scenario would be  an illegal  use of                                                               
the veto.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
10:54:34 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  asked  where the  term  allocation  is                                                               
defined.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. FINLEY  answered that  the term is  not defined,  but instead                                                               
used  in the  Executive Budget  Act.   The Act  says specifically                                                               
that money  cannot be transferred between  appropriations but can                                                               
be  transferred  between allocations.    In  further response  to                                                               
Representative Gruenberg, she acknowledged that conceivably                                                                     
there could be a constitutional issue with a delegation issue.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
10:57:16 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
There being no further business before the committee, the House                                                                 
Judiciary Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 10:57 a.m.                                                                

Document Name Date/Time Subjects
SB46 AG Opinion Memo 04-26-11.pdf HJUD 5/11/2011 8:00:00 AM
SB46 Rep. Gruenberg Opinion Memo 05-10-11.pdf HJUD 5/11/2011 8:00:00 AM
SB46 Legal Services Memo-Gruenberg 05-03-11.pdf HJUD 5/11/2011 8:00:00 AM
SB46 Legal Services Memo-Gruenberg 04-29-11.pdf HJUD 5/11/2011 8:00:00 AM
SB46 Legal Services Memo-French 04-28-11.pdf HJUD 5/11/2011 8:00:00 AM
SB46 Legal Services Memo-Chenault 04-22-11.pdf HJUD 5/11/2011 8:00:00 AM
SB46 Legal Services Memo-Gara 04-21-11.pdf HJUD 5/11/2011 8:00:00 AM
SB46 Case Law-State v ALIVE 02-19-80.pdf HJUD 5/11/2011 8:00:00 AM
SB46 Case Law-Brault v Holleman 11-24-76.pdf HJUD 5/11/2011 8:00:00 AM
SB46 Case Law-Leg Council v Knowles 04-20-01.pdf HJUD 5/11/2011 8:00:00 AM
SB46 Case Law-Karcher v Kean 08-06-84.pdf HJUD 5/11/2011 8:00:00 AM
SB46 Case Law-Prather v Brown 01-19-84.pdf HJUD 5/11/2011 8:00:00 AM
SB46 Version S 05-10-11.pdf HJUD 5/11/2011 8:00:00 AM
SB46 Statement-Paskvan 04-28-11.pdf HJUD 5/11/2011 8:00:00 AM
SB46 Statement-Stevens 04-27-11.pdf HJUD 5/11/2011 8:00:00 AM
SB46 Statement-French 04-27-11.pdf HJUD 5/11/2011 8:00:00 AM
SB46 Statement-French & Stedman (URLs) 04-26-11.pdf HJUD 5/11/2011 8:00:00 AM
SB46 Statement-Burns 04-26-11.pdf HJUD 5/11/2011 8:00:00 AM